Curse

Bryant Again · Aug 04, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Sincerely, instead of adding "new content" to the game, one of those big updates could be about redesigning UW.

UW is one of the most retard places in the entire GW - "hey its a mob of warriors", "look its a mob of rangers", "there is the mob of mesmers and there is the mob of monks and mob of eles and mob or necros"...

Dull and boooooooooooooooring and they killed the drops so much going there in any team format other than farming/UWSC is so freaking unrewarding that combined with the crappy uni-dimensional mobs makes UW #1 place to avoid in my book.

He's right, you know.

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

He's right, you know.

Abso-fraggin-lutely. Of course people only want to UWSC. The area SUCKS, the only draw to it is the reward. UWSC brings the reward faster (and compartmentalizes the suffering).

vandevere · Aug 04, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Abso-fraggin-lutely. Of course people only want to UWSC. The area SUCKS, the only draw to it is the reward. UWSC brings the reward faster (and compartmentalizes the suffering).

So, perhaps randomizing the monsters, mixing and matching them a little, along with improved drops all over, might be a step in the right direction..?

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

So, perhaps randomizing the monsters, mixing and matching them a little, along with improved drops all over, might be a step in the right direction..?

Depends on who you ask. I don't give an airborne copulation at a ventrally-rotating toroidal pastry about UWSC, personally. The .00001% chance at a good reward from the chest isn't worth the time (I ran mtns, so any hopes of ectos are right out) even for that, so randomizing it up still isn't going to get me to go back in there.

If you ask the people who DO enjoy it, then they're going to vote to leave it the hell alone (and I'd agree with them, solely because it doesn't affect me and I see no reason to screw with their play).

If you ask the people whining about nerfing SF, nothing will ever be good enough for them. If they nerf the area instead of Shadow Form, they'll continue bitch about shadow form. If they nerf SF to make UWSC but don't make it completely useless, they'll keep bitching about that. And if they DO smiters boon SF, they'll just bitch about its replacement.

Ugh · Aug 04, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

that it doesn't screw up the "normal" groups (that the whining smiters-boon-craving crowd insist never happen)

They don't happen. I'm not "insisting" it. It's a fact.

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The most != All, and the 600 does have the advantage. It doesn't even take enchant stripping to stop a perma.

But the most does = the most. They can farm a lot of places and they can do it by themselves. Also, almost all enchantment stripping can't stop permas as almost of them are spells.

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Who thinks what? That UWSC is not as easy as the SF-haters claim? No, I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Unless you mean the ones who are so morally opposed to it that, like yourself, that refuse to lower themselves to even try it

Here's someone who seems as if he's tried it:

Quote:

And yes, UWSC is easy, if you have any experience permaforming. Mnts is easy too, just run there and start wanding. If you die, it's because of bad spawns or you ran in some traps or lag, it's not because it's difficult.

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By definition, anything you would consider a "fix" would be a nerf, since you consider the skill too powerful to the point of broken, and a "fix" you approve of would make it less powerful.

I was hoping for a change that could help sins become viable in ways other than perma. Make them more powerful for something other than tanking. Which, according to their low armor and high mobility, was not their intended function.

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You have now done nothing more to the skill other than make to put it on the 2nd character instead of the primary. Same functionality, same results, can now add an additional skill on the primary bar to make run go smoother.

For PVP's sake, this change had better not be global, otherwise you completely screw monk bars...

The smiter has no energy doesn't he? Either way, this is the wrong thread for a discussion of this skill.

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So, perhaps randomizing the monsters, mixing and matching them a little, along with improved drops all over, might be a step in the right direction..?

I would settle for this, the gate thing (that might be harder to implement, but I'm no programmer), or both.

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

They don't happen. I'm not "insisting" it. It's a fact.

PUGs are not normal groups.

Quote:

But the most does = the most. They can farm a lot of places and they can do it by themselves. Also, almost all enchantment stripping can't stop permas as almost of them are spells.

So can Warriors, Monks, Necros, and Eles. Hell, Eles can still Vaettir farm 5x faster than sins after the keg nerf. So unless you're going to come up with some solid backing to these claims, you're cherry picking facts to suit yourself.

Get a list of all farms.
Eliminate the ones "that matter" (or do we really care about farming bolts of cloth?)* (optional, if you do care)
Eliminate the ones that anyone other than sins cannot do.
Eliminate Underworld, since you've made your damn point on that one, we get it, you don't like it, come up with a 2nd example.

Let me know what's left over.

Quote:

Here's someone who seems as if he's tried it:

Well then, I guess it's subjective and if you want to make an intelligent judgement of its difficulty and efficiency, you're going to come down off your high horse and try it yourself.

Or you can just keep parroting the same BS you've heard from other people who've heard from other people like some Fox News/CNN pundit, and be privy to about the same credibility.

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I was hoping for a change that could help sins become viable in ways other than perma. Make them more powerful for something other than tanking. Which, according to their low armor and high mobility, was not their intended function.

Step 1 to that would be unnerf shadow stepping, then, since thier high damage + low armor would suggest that they were intended for pop in-chain-pop out surgical strikes. But Anet has already decided they didn't want that for Sins.

aga · Aug 04, 2009, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Sincerely, instead of adding "new content" to the game, one of those big updates could be about redesigning UW.

UW is one of the most retard places in the entire GW - "hey its a mob of warriors", "look its a mob of rangers", "there is the mob of mesmers and there is the mob of monks and mob of eles and mob or necros"...

Dull and boooooooooooooooring and they killed the drops so much going there in any team format other than farming/UWSC is so freaking unrewarding that combined with the crappy uni-dimensional mobs makes UW #1 place to avoid in my book.

This is so badly true.

I would like to see a nerf to UWSC. Not to killl it completely, but just to make it slower/harder.

Freeze_XJ · Aug 04, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

The problem most of you are forgetting is that nerfs are game-wide. If you hit permasins, it either means SF will become lame (the hp-drop afterwards makes it somewhat nastier than Spellbreaker for instance), or that UW becomes hell for a normal balanced group.

Removing consets is hard too, they're in, and outright removing them will cause major QQ, stopping to provide them will just make them expensive. Besides, they serve as HM-simplifiers for standard players, which is what Anet wanted. We experienced players have had enough already, GW is now aiming for the casual player, who needs consets to dabble in HM.

Throwing Well of the Profane or something funny on necros in UW (which kinda kills permasins, 600 and 55 alike) would require dervs (forms) or warrs back in, which sounds OK to me... A siggy would do the same, though, but keeps the option of 'cover enchants' open.

No matter what Anet does though, the QQ will come, the leavers will still leave, and the rest will just go on with what they did the past 4 years.

Fire Turok · Aug 04, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

[/QUOTE] This I agree with. Assassins are only really desired when they are acting as SF tanks. But that doesn't mean they should continue abusing it, that means there is a problem with the class and they need buffs in other areas.[/QUOTE]

uhh for one we are not ABUSING it we are playing with what anet has set up for us.

Arduin · Aug 04, 2009, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Sincerely, instead of adding "new content" to the game, one of those big updates could be about redesigning UW.

UW is one of the most retard places in the entire GW - "hey its a mob of warriors", "look its a mob of rangers", "there is the mob of mesmers and there is the mob of monks and mob of eles and mob or necros"...

Dull and boooooooooooooooring and they killed the drops so much going there in any team format other than farming/UWSC is so freaking unrewarding that combined with the crappy uni-dimensional mobs makes UW #1 place to avoid in my book.

I think it was great, each area made especially for each profession. The mobs are not unidimensional, most of the areas only sport one profession, true, but most of the time there are several different creatures of that profession.

The problem is, it has gotten too easy to farm those areas nowadays because of all the newly added skills, professions and consumables.

Kinda weird knowing UW and FoW were made Core content, and not having been updated with the new skills and professions from the other campaigns. As it is now, Core = Prophecies when UW and FoW are concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Turok

uhh for one we are not ABUSING it we are playing with what anet has set up for us.

Rolls eyes. Rest assured, Anet is looking into SF.

Bryant Again · Aug 04, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

The problem is less in people using an abusing feature and more ANet allowing it.

I'd quote Avarre on that one but I has no times : (

Targren · Aug 05, 2009, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The problem is less in people using an abusing feature and more ANet allowing it.

I'd quote Avarre on that one but I has no times : (

Yes, by all means, quote Avarre, whose second-favorite hobby after bitching about SF seems to be pointing out that he doesn't even play the damn game anymore, so why the hell should we care what he thinks on the matter, much less quoting him like some sort of reference?

[DE] · Aug 05, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Just because a player no longer plays the game doesn't mean his insight, or thoughts, are void of legitimate ideas.

Arkantos · Aug 05, 2009, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Yes, by all means, quote Avarre, whose second-favorite hobby after bitching about SF seems to be pointing out that he doesn't even play the damn game anymore, so why the hell should we care what he thinks on the matter, much less quoting him like some sort of reference?

Ever stop to wonder why some players who stopped playing, well, stopped?

Not to mention DE is correct. When someone makes a constructive argument, the fact that they don't play anymore doesn't mean their opinion is void. If it did, well, a shitton of constructive arguments in riverside are void.

Ugh · Aug 05, 2009, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

PUGs are not normal groups.

By "normal" I assumed you meant balanced groups.

Quote:

So can Warriors, Monks, Necros, and Eles. Hell, Eles can still Vaettir farm 5x faster than sins after the keg nerf. So unless you're going to come up with some solid backing to these claims, you're cherry picking facts to suit yourself.

Get a list of all farms.
[Eliminate the ones "that matter" (or do we really care about farming bolts of cloth?)* (optional, if you do care)
Eliminate the ones that anyone other than sins cannot do.
Eliminate Underworld, since you've made your damn point on that one, we get it, you don't like it, come up with a 2nd example.

Let me know what's left over.

The farming potential of Warriors, Necros, Dervish, Rangers, and Ritualists don't come anywhere near the farming prowess of a sin or a monk. Eles? Not quite. Paragons and Mesmers? lol

Almost every farm another profession can do, a sin can do. And a sin can usually do it faster. Exceptions include some 600 stuff and very few others.

Sins are also required in damn near every team farm in the game. FoWSC and VSF, for example.

Quote:

Well then, I guess it's subjective and if you want to make an intelligent judgement of its difficulty and efficiency, you're going to come down off your high horse and try it yourself.

Or you can just keep parroting the same BS you've heard from other people who've heard from other people like some Fox News/CNN pundit, and be privy to about the same credibility.

Or I could keep parroting the facts I've heard from people who are speaking from their own first-hand experiences.

1 > 2 > 3

Got it?
That's what it takes to perma. When you see that purdy little SF icon start to flicker, do it again. If you can count to three, you have achieved invincibility in GW.

At most, it takes a few tries to get used to a farm/run/area/whatever.

Quote:

Yes, by all means, quote Avarre, whose second-favorite hobby after bitching about SF seems to be pointing out that he doesn't even play the damn game anymore, so why the hell should we care what he thinks on the matter, much less quoting him like some sort of reference?

Maybe he'd play GW more if Anet would take some initiative and nerf broken game elements.

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uhh for one we are not ABUSING it we are playing with what anet has set up for us.

Clearly you can't take a hint. Increased recharge and reduced damage while in SF seems like Anet's way of saying, "STOP ABUSING SF!" When an extremely powerful skill's one balancing factor (lose health when it ends) is incredibly easy to avoid, it's overpowered.

Targren · Aug 05, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

By "normal" I assumed you meant balanced groups.

Obviously you didn't assume that, since "balanced" groups happen every 1-2 weeks in my alliance, and you said it's a fact that they don't happen. So either you didn't assume that and you're backpedaling, or you're simply wrong.

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Sins are also required in damn near every team farm in the game. FoWSC and VSF, for example.

So you think the permasin nerf would stop team farms? They would be replaced. They're not required, they're simply the best way to accomplish the task for the role they fill in those teams.

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Almost every farm another profession can do, a sin can do. And a sin can usually do it faster. Exceptions include some 600 stuff and very few others.
...
Or I could keep parroting the facts I've heard from people who are speaking from their own first-hand experiences.

1 > 2 > 3

Got it?
That's what it takes to perma. When you see that purdy little SF icon start to flicker, do it again. If you can count to three, you have achieved invincibility in GW.

You're high.

Click > 1 > 2 > click > 1 > 3.
That's all it takes to be a good prot monk.

When you reduce things to keypresses, especially things you know nothing about, you miss the point.

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At most, it takes a few tries to get used to a farm/run/area/whatever.

That's the same with any class, any farm, anything really.

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Maybe he'd play GW more if Anet would take some initiative and nerf broken game elements.

Who cares? As far as I'm concerned, we're better off without people like him.

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Clearly you can't take a hint. Increased recharge and reduced damage while in SF seems like Anet's way of saying, "STOP ABUSING SF!"

Actually, you're apparently the one who cannot only not take a hint, but cannot even READ.

From the Dev update notes where SF's duration and recharge were reduced (to require more careful energy management)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dev Update

We recognize the fact that farming with Shadow Form-based builds can be really fun, so we have not resorted to breaking the ability to keep Shadow Form up permanently.

Evidently the devs made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to NOT break the permanent maintainability of shadow form. So any argument that perma is abusing the skill/against the devs' idea of what it should be/whatever is a lie.

Quote:

When an extremely powerful skill's one balancing factor (lose health when it ends) is incredibly easy to avoid, it's overpowered.

And when it's "balancing" factor means instant death when it's not avoided, making it unavoidable is smiters' booning the skill. I am aware that this is what you and others like you want, but it is bad design and a bad approach.

Bryant Again · Aug 05, 2009, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Who cares? As far as I'm concerned, we're better off without people like him.

We're better off without people who know more about the games' mechanics than anyone else on this forum?

That's a scary thought...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

And when it's "balancing" factor means instant death when it's not avoided, making it unavoidable is smiters' booning the skill. I am aware that this is what you and others like you want, but it is bad design and a bad approach.

The skill was generally bad design from the start. It's an incredibly unimaginative skill.

As is though, in it's current state yes, it does need a toning down. And if the devs don't agree, then that's also quite a scary thought.

Avarre · Aug 05, 2009, 05:45 AM // 05:45

The standard balancing factors are cost, recharge, casting time, and duration. Giving it an RaO-esque rebalance of dramatically adjusting recharge time and duration, either to make it unmaintainable (in which case, the ending penalty could be reduced or dropped), or impossible to maintain by normal energy recharge, would probably kill most complaints.

Alternatively, add a 'SF is disabled for 60 seconds' clause on it, similar to Dervish Forms, so that fast recharge effects don't work on it. SF will still be viable as a target-sniping skill for solofarming or for running (where the penalty is largely irreleant), but no longer a tanking skill.

HawkofStorms · Aug 05, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

While the devs said they would like to keep SF perminately maintained... they said that after nerfing it while saying "we will continue to keep on eye on it to see if that nerf was enough." Evidently, they knew it was screwed up. Clearly, it still is being abused to complete areas that take hours to do in a fraction of the time, from VSF to UW/FoWSCs. Again, that is the real problem. Being powerful is one thing. Being way more efficient relative to everything else is something else.

Just like Ursan, don't be surprised if it gets nerfed. And when it does, I'm sure there will be many people complaining about how "I'm never buying anything again, a.net sucks, etc" posts. But then people will get over it, like they have with every nerf. Because if you really enjoy the game (and not just trying to get phat loot), you will keep playing. And when GW2 comes around, all those whiners will forget their empty threats as they will all be drooling over a beautiful new game.

fecalstorm · Aug 05, 2009, 06:11 AM // 06:11

The amount of people that piss and moan about SF is amazing. Permaform has been the best thing to ever happen for me because I'm an adult and have a life and don't have 100000000 hours to put into the game to get some FoW armor.